Please Help - Dish Installation

[gopoc]

My quest to acquire FTA channels failed miserably (headaches and disgust came over to be my friends) today at 8 PM after 14+ hours of hard work, careful measurements, and reading useless manuals. I am now beaten down to the ground and humbly asking for help in order to get this project going. Here are the details (please let me know if I have any wrong data):

· Location: 41.1N and 73.1W; full open sky to South from 110 to 250
· True South: by compass is 180+14=194, also verified with GPS set to measure True instead of Magnetic
· Antenna: Fortec Star 48" (120cm); offset angle 24.62 degrees
· LNB: Invacom Quad Polar with 40mm horn - QPH-031
· Receiver: Viewsat 2000 Ultra
· Pole: 2"3/8, 8' long (3' under in concrete and 5' above ground); plumb on all sides (I used protractor and level)
· Motor: Stab HH120
· Switch: S-DS41C 4-Way DiSEqC Switch
· Cable: Eagle Aspen RG-6 Coaxial Cable - Model QCB5HRG6-B-SF
· Connectors: Compression F RG6


I started by connecting the LNB's 4 outputs L C L C (L=linear; C=circular) labeled from left to right as viewed from the opposite side of the horn - http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Installati...om-QPH-031.htm. I connected two equal length RG6 cables from first (starting from left) L/C group to LNB1 and LNB2 inputs on S-DS41C 4-Way DiSEqC Switch. I terminated the other L/C LNB outputs and LNB3/LNB4 DiSEqC Switch inputs with F59T F terminators. I ran another RG6 cable from S-DS41C 4-Way DiSEqC Switch output to LNB F connector on the HH120 motor. From the REC F connector on the HH120 motor I then ran a 50' RG6 cable to the receiver's DISH connector. Finally I connected the receiver to the TV via RF on channel 3 and got a blue background with menu.

I aligned the HH120 motor with the dish and then I pointed the whole assembly to True South according to compass/GPS readings. I set the motor angle to my Latitude value of 41.1 degrees and set antenna elevation to 23.6 degrees as resulted from calculation for motorized dishes at http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Installation/STAB-Installation-Angles.htm. The LNB polarization tilt is set to 0 as it is not required to set an angle for motorized dishes.

Happy like a turkey alive after Thanksgiving I turned on the TV and the receiver and proceeded to Installation --> Antenna Setup menu where I set:

· Satellite: Intelsat 5 (97.0W)
· LNB Power: On
· LNB Type: Universal (also has Standard as option)
· LNB High: 10750 (this turns to LNB Freq, when Standard selected)
· LNB Low: 9750 (this turns to 22 KHz, when Standard selected)
· TP Freq: 11789
· DiSeQc 1.0: NONE (this menu also has ToneBurst-A, ToneBurst-B, Port 1, Port 2, Port 3, and Port 4 options available)
· Motor: USALS (under this menu I set my Lat and Long to 41.1N and 73.1W then I pressed OK to turn the dish to the satellite position)
The dish turned to 97 W (about 24 gradations on the motor shaft scale), the S(I guess Signal) peaked at 68, but Q(maybe Quality) stayed 0. I then proceeded to adjust the dish East/West, changed elevation angle up/down 1 degree at a time but Q stayed at 0 all this time. I tried other satellites via USALS with similar results. The only one that had a Q of 10-12 was Nimiq 1,3 (91 W) and I was able to scan channels in and list program names and schedules but the TV stubbornly displayed the blue background even when those channels were clearly identified. No picture, no sound. I know life is hard but it should not be this hard to setup a motorized dish as I have done it manually in the past many times. I even connected the L output from the LNB directly to the receiver and I manually tried to point the dish to IA5 (97.0 W) and Nimiq 1,3 (91.0 W), adjusting elevation, and East/West angles manually but no Q greater than 0 was reached this time no matter how much I measured the angles over and over and swiped the sky East/West. When I connect the SG95 meter as I move the dish it shows increased/decreased signal with max/min values in between. I adjusted the dish with SG95 for max value signal and got nothing on screen - Q stays at 0 with that Nimiq exception that I was not able to replicate after the one lucky event horizon. I also used another DiSEqC switch that came with the receiver but that did not change the Q. Please advise if I am doing something wrong here.

I have the following receiver menu (the receiver manual is at best incomplete if not confusing) and equipment setup questions:

1. What LNB Type setting should I use (Universal or Standard)?
2. If Universal what values should LNB High and LNB Low be (they seem to be preset but I can change them)?
3. If Standard then what LNB Freq. and value for 22 KHz menu should I select?
4. Should I select any value other than NONE for DiSEqC 1.0 (ToneBurst-A, ToneBurst-B, Port 1, Port 2, Port 3 - not connected, or Port 4 - not connected)?
5. Should I use F59T F terminators for empty connections?
6. Why didn't I get any picture on screen when channels were scanned in on Nimiq 1,3 (91.0 W)?

Thank you in advance for any help and guidance in resolving this desperate situation (missus and kids are making fun of me already, not to mention the neighbors). I appreciate any input and time spent on this thread.

[wejones]

Originally Posted by gopoc

My quest to acquire FTA channels failed miserably (headaches and disgust came over to be my friends) today at 8 PM after 14+ hours of hard work, careful measurements, and reading useless manuals. I am now beaten down to the ground and humbly asking for help in order to get this project going. Here are the details (please let me know if I have any wrong data):

· Location: 41.1N and 73.1W; full open sky to South from 110 to 250
· True South: by compass is 180+14=194, also verified with GPS set to measure True instead of Magnetic
· Antenna: Fortec Star 48" (120cm); offset angle 24.62 degrees
· LNB: Invacom Quad Polar with 40mm horn - QPH-031
· Receiver: Viewsat 2000 Ultra
· Pole: 2"3/8, 8' long (3' under in concrete and 5' above ground); plumb on all sides (I used protractor and level)
· Motor: Stab HH120
· Switch: S-DS41C 4-Way DiSEqC Switch
· Cable: Eagle Aspen RG-6 Coaxial Cable - Model QCB5HRG6-B-SF
· Connectors: Compression F RG6


I started by connecting the LNB's 4 outputs L C L C (L=linear; C=circular) labeled from left to right as viewed from the opposite side of the horn - http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Installati...om-QPH-031.htm. I connected two equal length RG6 cables from first (starting from left) L/C group to LNB1 and LNB2 inputs on S-DS41C 4-Way DiSEqC Switch. I terminated the other L/C LNB outputs and LNB3/LNB4 DiSEqC Switch inputs with F59T F terminators. I ran another RG6 cable from S-DS41C 4-Way DiSEqC Switch output to LNB F connector on the HH120 motor. From the REC F connector on the HH120 motor I then ran a 50' RG6 cable to the receiver's DISH connector. Finally I connected the receiver to the TV via RF on channel 3 and got a blue background with menu.

I aligned the HH120 motor with the dish and then I pointed the whole assembly to True South according to compass/GPS readings. I set the motor angle to my Latitude value of 41.1 degrees and set antenna elevation to 23.6 degrees as resulted from calculation for motorized dishes at http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Installation/STAB-Installation-Angles.htm. The LNB polarization tilt is set to 0 as it is not required to set an angle for motorized dishes.

Everything looks OK (I think) re angles, however you shouldn't expect to just set the angles and get reception without a little bit of additional searching. This is where it is handy to either have a signal meter or to have your receiver out at the dish so you can see the results of fine tuning the alignment.

Originally Posted by gopoc

Happy like a turkey alive after Thanksgiving I turned on the TV and the receiver and proceeded to Installation --> Antenna Setup menu where I set:

· Satellite: Intelsat 5 (97.0W)
· LNB Power: On
· LNB Type: Universal (also has Standard as option)
· LNB High: 10750 (this turns to LNB Freq, when Standard selected)
· LNB Low: 9750 (this turns to 22 KHz, when Standard selected)
· TP Freq: 11789
· DiSeQc 1.0: NONE (this menu also has ToneBurst-A, ToneBurst-B, Port 1, Port 2, Port 3, and Port 4 options available)
..........
· Motor: USALS (under this menu I set my Lat and Long to 41.1N and 73.1W then I pressed OK to turn the dish to the satellite position)
The dish turned to 97 W (about 24 gradations on the motor shaft scale), the S(I guess Signal) peaked at 68, but Q(maybe Quality) stayed 0. I then proceeded to adjust the dish East/West, changed elevation angle up/down 1 degree at a time but Q stayed at 0 all this time. I tried other satellites via USALS with similar results. ..........
......

You should be using Standard for LNB type. On linear satellites, you should set your DiseqC to the port number (1-4) corresponding to where you connected the linear port from the lnbf, and set the LO freq on that sat to 10750. If you are trying to lock one of the few FTA signals on circular DBS sats, then when setting up that sat, set the Diseqc port number to the number corresponding to where you connected the circular port, and set the LO freq (again Standard) to 11250.
For the TP freq, this is OK for IA5, however you should first try to find your true south satellite. It is a complete waste of time to go off trying to find other satellites before you peak on your true south satellite.
I recommend starting over. Set your angles as you did before, and try to find either SBS6 or AMC6. Never touch the motor elevation, just adjust the dish elevation and minor adjustment of whole assembly on pole to peak the reception. Then, and only then go to other sats, and then you only adjust the whole assembly on the pole, plus nudging the motor a bit if you decide to use DiseqC1.2.

Originally Posted by gopoc

.....

Originally Posted by gopoc

I know life is hard but it should not be this hard to setup a motorized dish as I have done it manually in the past many times.

You're making it hard by skipping steps.

Originally Posted by gopoc

......

Originally Posted by gopoc

I have the following receiver menu (the receiver manual is at best incomplete if not confusing) and equipment setup questions:

1. What LNB Type setting should I use (Universal or Standard)?
2. If Universal what values should LNB High and LNB Low be (they seem to be preset but I can change them)?
3. If Standard then what LNB Freq. and value for 22 KHz menu should I select?
4. Should I select any value other than NONE for DiSEqC 1.0 (ToneBurst-A, ToneBurst-B, Port 1, Port 2, Port 3 - not connected, or Port 4 - not connected)?
5. Should I use F59T F terminators for empty connections?
6. Why didn't I get any picture on screen when channels were scanned in on Nimiq 1,3 (91.0 W)?

....

Re (1), as I said above, Standard. Re (2) not applicable
Re (3) , as above, 10750 for linear sats, 11250 for circular. Turn 22KHz off.
Re (4) , as above, if you have linear connected say to port 1 and circular connected to port 2 on your switch, then use 1 for linear sats and 2 for circular sats. Having this to none will perhaps give you no signal at all, or if you are lucky give you only what the swithch happens to default to.
Re (5) , people recommend this, but I don't bother doing this myself. It won't keep you from getting signal.
Re (6) Nimiq sats have primarily encrypted channels. Your receiver is designed to only receive FTA channels, not encrypted channels. Some circular DBS satellites have a few FTA channels, but not many. Nimiq sats used to have a lot of FTA radio channels, but I think they are mostly gone now. You'll find some music channels and a few FTA things like NASA-TV on some of the Echo sats, but again, most things on the circular sats are encrypted.

[brentb636]

1. What LNB Type setting should I use (Universal or Standard)?
2. If Universal what values should LNB High and LNB Low be (they seem to be preset but I can change them)?
3. If Standard then what LNB Freq. and value for 22 KHz menu should I select?
4. Should I select any value other than NONE for DiSEqC 1.0 (ToneBurst-A, ToneBurst-B, Port 1, Port 2, Port 3 - not connected, or Port 4 - not connected)?
5. Should I use F59T F terminators for empty connections?
6. Why didn't I get any picture on screen when channels were scanned in on Nimiq 1,3 (91.0 W)?

1. Use standard for lnb type. When you are using the linear port ( Diseqc 1) LO = 10750 . When you are using the circular port ( Diseqc 2 ) LO = 11250 .
4. When acquiring a linear bird like IntelSat 5, Diseqc = port 1 ( the linear lnb), and when acquiring a circular bird like Nimiq 1, Diseqc = port 2 ( where you hooked up the cable to the circular lnb ) .
5. Yes, you should terminate or cap the unused connections.
6. I think you were acquiring it using the linear lnb( probably port 1 is the default ) . If I were you, I'd first try to optimize on Nimiq 2 ( closer to your south) and a powerful circular bird. Make sure that the lnb type is standard, LO=11250, and Diseqc port=2 . You should be able to get close to 100% quality on that bird with your antenna. Then go back out to Intelsat 5 at 97W, LO=10750, Diseqc=1 , and fine tune on that . I suspect you're real close right now to being okay with the right settings.

Have some more fun !

Brent

[gopoc]

What a pain. Here it is what I have found after another 8 hours:

I managed to get Nimiq 2 in at signal level 74 and quality level 12 to 35. I scanned some TV and radio channels but could not see or hear due to scrambling. The I moved to Nimiq 1,3 and obtained the same signal/quality levels. I also managed to get EchoStar 8,10 and EchoStar 7 at signal level 76 and quality level 24 to 50. I scanned some channels and I was able to hear some free radio channels. No matter what I did the quality never passed the above values.

I used the following values:
LNB Type: Standard
LNB Frequency: 11250
22KHz: off
TP: I picked one which had a strong quality level value
DiSEcQ: Port 2 (that is where I connected the circular output)
Motor: USALS

As you probably noticed those are all circular signals. I was never able to connect to any linear signal on any satellite no matter what I tried (I even switched to the second L/C pair at LNB). In the end I positioned the antenna on Nimiq 2 and disconnected the LNB from the arm. While moving the LNB straight out for about 3.5 to 4.5 inches following the arm direction, the quality level jumped to 80-90. WOW. I measured the LNB arm length and I got 25 inches. The focus length on Fortec Star 120 cm dish is 720 mm (28.34 inches) and when I measured from the center of the dish to the center of the LNB connected to its arm I got 645 mm (26.32 inches). I wonder if Sadoun staff sent by mistake the arm and the supporting bars for Fortec Star 100 cm dish which has a focal length of 600 mm.

Now the questions:

1. Any of you know what the length of LNB arm is on a Fortec Star 120 cm (measured from edge to edge of the square bar)?
2. On those circular birds (Nimiq, EchoStar) the polarity on my Viewsat Ultra receiver never showed L or R but only H and V. Is that normal or I missed a setting somewhere?
3. As I was never able to get any linear signals in I am wondering if my LNB is functioning correctly? Maybe it is defective?

I am so close and yet so far. On top of everything I missed three gorgeous fishing days chasing for the big one.

[brentb636]

The stb will always show H and V, never R and L, so that is normal.

Have you tried adjusting your dish elevation at the bracket ? Mine was off by about 8 degrees.
The fact that you are getting all these circular birds, but at LOW quality levels makes me think that your azimuth setting is pretty close.

Linear birds have much weaker signals than circular echostar birds. Since the circular signals are low, the linear ones are probably nonexistent. I wouldn't suspect a problem with the lnb so far.
Go back to Nimiq 2, and adjust dish elevation at bracket ( definetly NOT at the motor), and see if you can improve the quality. I get 85-100% on the big circular birds, with a 31" dish, so you should get better quality than that.

[rainman]

as brentb636 said try adjusting you elevation on the dish.first try by getting on one of the circular sat you get and lift up and push down on the dish to see if you get better quality hold it for several seconds to allow the receiver to see the change.it sounds like you are very close.

[gopoc]

Originally Posted by brentb636

"Have you tried adjusting your dish elevation at the bracket ? Mine was off by about 8 degrees.
The fact that you are getting all these circular birds, but at LOW quality levels makes me think that your azimuth setting is pretty close.

Linear birds have much weaker signals than circular echostar birds. Since the circular signals are low, the linear ones are probably nonexistent. I wouldn't suspect a problem with the lnb so far.
Go back to Nimiq 2, and adjust dish elevation at bracket ( definetly NOT at the motor), and see if you can improve the quality. I get 85-100% on the big circular birds, with a 31" dish, so you should get better quality than that."

I did adjust the dish elevation angle, from 23.6 calculated for my dish/motor/location to almost 30 degrees, before my previous post to get higher quality signal but it did not reach 80-95 until I pulled the LNB straight out from its arm 3.5 to 4.5 inches. As I stated previously I believe that LNB is not in the focal point of the dish as the arm it is shorter by 3.6 inches. Fortec Star 120 cm dish suppose to have 720 mm focal distance and not 645 mm I measured. The 645 mm coresponds closer to a Fortec Star 100 cm dish with 600 mm focal distance. The F/D ratio is the same, 0.6 for both dishes. 720 mm / 0.6 = 1200 mm dish and 600 mm / 0.6 = 1000 mm dish; 645 mm / 0.6 = 1075 mm dish. Therefore no matter how hard I try I will not get linear birds in until I get the LNB properly in the focal point. See this excellent article on offset dishes here http://www.satsig.net/22-deg-offset-dish.htm.I emailed Sadoun asking for the proper gear for 120 cm dish. At this point I am tracking 4 circular birds OK and have no linear birds in as the quality signal is very low. I believe this focus problem forced me to properly align to True South, corect the elevation angle, and generaly align the dish to the point where all I need now is to get the LNB into the focal point to start calling it done. Any of you have a 120 cm Fortec Star Dish? Maybe you could take a measurement of the LNB arm length and post it here please. Thank you.

[wejones]

Originally Posted by gopoc

.....
While moving the LNB straight out for about 3.5 to 4.5 inches following the arm direction, the quality level jumped to 80-90. WOW. I measured the LNB arm length and I got 25 inches. The focus length on Fortec Star 120 cm dish is 720 mm (28.34 inches) and when I measured from the center of the dish to the center of the LNB connected to its arm I got 645 mm (26.32 inches).......

This "may" make things seem worse, however you do NOT measure focal length of an offset dish to the "center of the dish" as you say. There is no absolute way of measuring it, however the closest thing to being a way to measure it is to measure from the front of the LNBF to the near edge of the dish. In most cases, this would give you even a smaller measurement, however. But one of the members here recently found that his LNBF support arm was bent, placing it nearly up where a prime focus feed would be. It almost sounds to me like your lnbf arm might be bent too.
If you place a straight-edge across the front of the dish from top to bottom, then place a big carpenter's square on this straight-edge so that it aligns with the lnbf..... where on the dish does the lnbf hit? Ie close to the bottom edge, or near the center of the dish??? I'm almost guessing that yours is bent up, so the lnbf is closer to the center of the dish, when looking perpindicular to the straight edge across the dish.

[gopoc]

I spoke with Jamal and Steven from Sadoun and they confirmed that the LNB arm and supporting bars sent to me are for a Fortec Star 100 cm dish based on 25 inches length I found. That would explain why I had some difficulties connecting them to the dish - probably I deformed the dish as well because the material it is built of is thin .

The length of the LNB arm for a Fortec Star 120 cm dish is 29 inches, as stated to me by Jamal. Having the dish perfectly aligned, once I replace the LNB arm and supporting bars (according to Steven it should ship today), I should be able to pull in more satellites and put behind me the 3 days worth of aggravation and move on.

I will keep you posted with the results when I replace the LNB arm and brackets. Thank you for all your help and good words that kept me going.

[gopoc]

Originally Posted by wejones

"But one of the members here recently found that his LNBF support arm was bent, placing it nearly up where a prime focus feed would be. It almost sounds to me like your lnbf arm might be bent too.
If you place a straight-edge across the front of the dish from top to bottom, then place a big carpenter's square on this straight-edge so that it aligns with the lnbf..... where on the dish does the lnbf hit? Ie close to the bottom edge, or near the center of the dish??? I'm almost guessing that yours is bent up, so the lnbf is closer to the center of the dish, when looking perpindicular to the straight edge across the dish."

wejones you are right. I realize the focal distance does not measure from the center of the dish for an offset type. It can be measured if one knows the offset angle (24.62 in my case) and some elipse calculations. The fact I measured from center and the 120 cm dish size explains the 645 mm number instead of 600 mm Due to arm and supporting bars shortness the LNB is pulled up towards the center of the dish, not quite in the center but close. I hope with the right arm and supporting bars to be able to bring the LNB into the focal point. I only hope I did not deformed the dish too much (it does not look to deformed). Thank you.

[gopoc]

The LNB arm sure did the trick. Fortec Star 120 cm dish needs a 29 3/4 inches arm and not the 25 inches shipped to me initially. The staff at Sadoun had the patience to listen to my ramblings (email and phone) about LNB arm length and then ship FedEx the right parts. I have restored my credibility and "gets things done" status before my family and friends. I am now tracking alll satellites available on the Clark belt and will proceed with fine tunning reception quality over the weekend (no fishing due to inclement weather ). Thank you all again for support and advice.

[rainman]

glad to here you got it solved gopoc.