Fortec install problems

[rjhatl]

1- Your location:
2- Receiver make and model:
3- Dish size:
4- LNBF type:
5- Motor if any:
6- Now to your question:

Hi. I'm in Tucker, Ga (near Atlanta). I've got a Fortec Mercury II reciever, a 90cm Fortec dish, the Sadoun ULN1 LNBF, and an SG2100 motor (basically the motorized dish package with a larger dish).

My installer and I are having problems getting it working.

1) In the reciever, I assume signal level = signal between LNBF and the reciever and signal quality = signal to satellite. We've never been able to get either of these to budge. If my assumptions are correct, there's a communication problem between the LNBF and the reciever, right? The installer says the cables are testing OK.

2) The reciever can move the dish. However, frequently it goes in the opposite direction of where it should, and I have to reset it to 0 and then move it again.

And of course, we've never been able to find a satellite signal. I've followed the instructions on the Sadoun "installing an HH motor" page. I'm wondering now if there might be a hardware problem causing this?

Thanks,
Robbie

[rjhatl]

OK, my installer checked the signal from the wall to the LNBF and says it seems to be good. Could this be a receiver issue?

Thanks,
Robbie

[Bibbler]

Originally Posted by rjhatl

1- Your location:
2- Receiver make and model:
3- Dish size:
4- LNBF type:
5- Motor if any:
6- Now to your question:

What is your Zipcode to start?

[pmb1010]

usually if the motor does this, you've got your coordinates wrong in USALS.

Make sure you have your Lat and Long entered correct:
xx.x N and xx.x W (not East!)

[rainman]

also if you are using the u bolt mount on the 90cm dish try dropping elevation on the dish by 5 degrees then search for signal.

[rjhatl]

Thanks for the replies..

My zip code: 30084 (decimal lat: 33.85N, 84.22W). They're set properly in the USALS motorized dish setup panel.

Rainman: yeah, the motor came with U-bolt clamps. After I get back home Monday, I'll climb up there and try dropping dish elevation by 5deg.

FWIW, my current settings are:

Motor elevation: 34 (set on the latitude scale side of the motor)
Dish elevation: 24.49 (30 - 5.51 declination)
True south: 184 (180 + 4)


Thanks!

[rjhatl]

Oh, I was playing around and enabled disecq 1.2 instead of USALS. I moved the dish around manually a bit and saw a few spots where the signal quality indicator would occasionally jump to 25 or so. So I'm not far off, apparently. Good to know I can see a signal on the receiver.

[rainman]

you need to start on your true south sat for you that would be amc2 at 85w use the usals feature to move your dish to this location then move the whole assembly east or west to find a signal remember to mark your starting point so you can see how far you have move and to return to the starting point if you need to.also slow small movements and allow 15 seconds between each move for the receiver to see the change continue east west up and down on dish elevation to you receive the highest qualtiy reading you can get.

[bill190]

You can't just point your dish to the sky or point your dish to any satellite and get a signal on your receiver signal meter.

First of all, to get a signal on your receiver, you need to point your dish to a *specific* spot in the sky - point your dish to a specific satellite.

The size of the spot you need to aim the dish at is about the size of this ---> O

Then you need to align the dish to be in the center of that spot to get the best reception. This means in the center of the spot up/down and in the center of the spot left/right.

Needless to say, this is like trying to find a needle in a haystack!

Furthermore your receiver has settings for specific satellites and specific frequencies on those satellites. If your dish is pointing at the wrong satellite, you will not get any signal readings (if your receiver is set to receive another satellite).

And if your dish is pointed at the correct satellite, and your receiver is is set to the same satellite, but you have a frequency (transponder) selected for that satellite which is outdated or has nothing on it, or it is an "encrypted" frequency (Not FTA), then you will not get anything on your receiver signal meter.

Note that frequencies change on satellites quite often. So the frequencies your receiver came with can become outdated between the time the receiver was manufactured and the time you purchased the receiver. You can of course enter a new active FTA frequency/POL/SR.

You will not get anything if your receiver is set to receive a "C-band" frequency (4 digit) and you have a "Ku-band" LNB and dish (Ku band frequencies/transponders are 5 digit numbers).

You *will* get a reading on your receiver signal meter if your dish is pointing at the correct satellite, your receiver is set to receive from the same satellite, and you have an active Free to Air DVB frequency selected for that satellite (or have entered an active FTA DVB frequency) and the frequency is the correct band for your LNB/dish (Ku - 5 digit number for a small dish).

Frequencies for each satellite are listed at lyngsat.com. C-band is 4 digits, Ku band is 5 digits.

Finding the first satellite....

I am aiming my dish at a spot which requires accuracy, so I use accurate instruments. I use an "inclinometer" to be sure my dish is set to the correct height for a specific satellite. And I use a handheld GPS set to actual heading (not magnetic) to find the correct direction to point my dish for a specific satellite. I walk from the dish south multiple times with my GPS until I am walking the correct direction for the satellite. Then place a rock on that spot. Then aim my dish the direction of that rock.

Then I find out the offset amount of my specific dish which can be found at the dish manufacturer's web site. This could be 15 degrees offset, 18, 20, etc. Varies for each dish. This is because the LNB on a offset dish is mounted below the center of the dish. So the dish is actually pointing higher than it looks. The difference is the "offset amount" for the specific dish.

Then I use a dish pointing calculator which takes into consideration my location; longitude and latitude, elevation above sea level, and the specific satellite I am trying to point my dish at.

Here is such a dish pointing calculator...
Javascript for antenna lookangles calculations

Accurate longitude and latitude and elevation of your location here. Keep double clicking on map...
EarthTools - Find places, latitude/longitude, sunrise/sunset, elevation, local time and time zones

Then when I plug in all the numbers, I get accurate numbers back...
I get the direction my dish should be pointing (Azimuth). And I get elevation of the satellite or how high to point my dish in the sky. (Subtract dish offset amount from this.)

Then I can use my "inclinometer" to set my dish at the correct height and use my handheld GPS to point my dish the correct direction. Then I am pretty close to where that satellite is.

Next I attach a coax signal meter to my LNB. This will get a reading for any satellite and any frequency! Much easier to find any satellite with this gizmo.

Now I am in the ballpark for finding that first satellite. I usually just need to move my dish a little up/down or left/right to find it. About the size of a baseball.

Take some time and read this...
Footprints by Dish Size - Adjusting the Polar Mount for Prime Focus Antenna - C/Ku-Band Satellite Systems - Tuning, Tracking, Azimuth, Elevation, Declination Angles, F/D Ratio, Focal Distance, Inclinometer, LNB/Feedhorn Assembly, Actuator Assembly, C

[wejones]

Originally Posted by bill190

You can't just point your dish to the sky or point your dish to any satellite and get a signal on your receiver signal meter.

True

Originally Posted by bill190

The size of the spot you need to aim the dish at is about the size of this ---> O
.....

Needless to say, this is like trying to find a needle in a haystack!
.......

??? You've been saying this thing about the -->O , but what are you trying to say here. If you had said that you have to be fairly accurate, I'd agree, but this sounds like you're trying to indicate some absolute size, which would be different for every computer monitor size/video card resolution, font, etc, and also depends on the size dish you are using and whether you're talking C or Ku. For me, this isn't very close to being meaningful. If you want something meaningful, I'd say make a fist, and extend your arm. For an 18" Ku dish, perhaps 3 or 4 finger widths, for a 3' Ku dish maybe 1 or 2 finger widths, and for a 10' dish on Ku, about 1/2 to 1 finger width. For a 10' dish on C, back to about 1 or 2 finger widths. Of course this depends on how big your fingers are and how long your arms. Easier to just say that you have to be fairly accurate. However the accuracy isn't so much that I'd describe it as needle in haystack. I've been able to hand hold a small dish roughly aimed where I thought a sat was, find the sat, using a receiver's meter and be able to hold it steady enough to scan in channels and hold a picture, at least until my arms got tired.

Originally Posted by bill190

.......
Finding the first satellite....

I am aiming my dish at a spot which requires accuracy, so I use accurate instruments. I use an "inclinometer" to be sure my dish is set to the correct height for a specific satellite. And I use a handheld GPS set to actual heading (not magnetic) to find the correct direction to point my dish for a specific satellite. I walk from the dish south multiple times with my GPS until I am walking the correct direction for the satellite. Then place a rock on that spot. Then aim my dish the direction of that rock.

I really don't think this is very accurate, unless you're walking about 1000 feet, ie a pretty big and flat back yard. Your average GPS is going to be lucky to have 50' accuracy most of the time, even the WAAS enabled ones or DGPS enabled ones. I've connected both WAAS and consumer DGPS GPSs to a computer and plotted position while stationary, and even though the GPS was indicating accuracy in the 10 to 50' range, the actual wander of the indicated location was in the range of hundreds of feet, when it shouldn't have been changing more than about 15' according to the indicated accuracy. But even if the GPS was as accurate as even 15', which I find unlikely, you'd have to walk about 290' {15/sin(3)} and get an average reading to get within the 3 degrees or so that you need to get to within the see a signal accuracy of finding a sat. I think a compass can do that good, and using the sun is MUCH more accurate. I just tried using my newest WAAS enabled GPS, walking a straight line marked along my driveway, and while walking, the bearing was changing from 295 to 320.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that WAAS and DGPS are capable of very high accuracy, when you have a complete view of the sky and a very expensive GPS unit. What I was describing though is what the average person can expect out of a consumer GPS when there are trees and buildings partially blocking the sky, and/or when you're some distance from one of the DGPS sites or WAAS master station. With typical conditions, I've saved a waypoint, walked around my property and came back to where I started, saved another waypoint, and found that the 2 waypoints differed by more than 70' using either WAAS or DGPS. I've also done computerized simulated DGPS using a second GPS to generate the reference position, and still got errors greater than 50'. These consumer GPS units just aren't as accurate as they claim to be.

Originally Posted by bill190

Then I find out the offset amount of my specific dish which can be found at the dish manufacturer's web site. This could be 15 degrees offset, 18, 20, etc. Varies for each dish.

Most are in the 22-30 deg range. However I fail to see how it helps you to know this, because even assuming that this value is accurate, with an offset dish, there isn't really any surface that you can relate this number to. Ie most dishes don't have any surface that you could put your inclinometer on, that corresponds to exactly the apparent aim of the dish, from which you can add the offset angle to get the sat elevation. With a big prime focus dish, an inclinometer comes in very handy, and is a good way to aim the dish, but I haven't been able to use this technique with offset dishes. The only thing I've been able to use an inclinometer for is to set the motor elevation, which has nothing to do with the dish's offset angle.

Originally Posted by bill190

This is because the LNB on a offset dish is mounted below the center of the dish. So the dish is actually pointing higher than it looks. The difference is the "offset amount" for the specific dish.

Then I use a dish pointing calculator which takes into consideration my location; longitude and latitude, elevation above sea level, and the specific satellite I am trying to point my dish at.

Here is such a dish pointing calculator...
Javascript for antenna lookangles calculations

Accurate longitude and latitude and elevation of your location here. Keep double clicking on map...
EarthTools - Find places, latitude/longitude, sunrise/sunset, elevation, local time and time zones

Then when I plug in all the numbers, I get accurate numbers back...
I get the direction my dish should be pointing (Azimuth). And I get elevation of the satellite or how high to point my dish in the sky. (Subtract dish offset amount from this.)

What you're describing here seems to be for a fixed dish. I thought this person had a motorized dish? The sat elevation and dish pointing calculators aren't used when setting up a motorized dish.

[rjhatl]

Thanks, Rainman. I had another guy come out and help me with the dish this week- and it works fine now. It tracks the arc like a champ. The only problem I'm having now is that Hispasat at 30W doesn't come in as well as I'd like it to and I can't see all the US transponders, but otherwise everything is great!

[rainman]

Originally Posted by rjhatl

Thanks, Rainman. I had another guy come out and help me with the dish this week- and it works fine now. It tracks the arc like a champ. The only problem I'm having now is that Hispasat at 30W doesn't come in as well as I'd like it to and I can't see all the US transponders, but otherwise everything is great!

cool glad to here you got it up and running.

[bill190]

Originally Posted by rjhatl

...I had another guy come out and help me with the dish this week- and it works fine now. It tracks the arc like a champ...

What did the other guy do to set up your dish?