Receiver hanging during scan of IA5 12177 TP

[eddiebisketti]

I have a Fortec Lifetime Ultra, Fortec LNBF, and Fortec 80CM dish. I did a TP scan on IA5 12177 and it hangs during the scan (which it never has done before), although the meter shows a signal of about 98/60. I reset the receiver but when I did a power scan it picks up 12177 but hangs scanning 12177 (at about 95% complete). It scans all other TP's. Would this more than likely be a LNBF problem or would it be the receiver? Any ideas? Thanks!

[wejones]

Originally Posted by eddiebisketti

I have a Fortec Lifetime Ultra, Fortec LNBF, and Fortec 80CM dish. I did a TP scan on IA5 12177 and it hangs during the scan (which it never has done before), although the meter shows a signal of about 98/60. I reset the receiver but when I did a power scan it picks up 12177 but hangs scanning 12177 (at about 95% complete). It scans all other TP's. Would this more than likely be a LNBF problem or would it be the receiver? Any ideas? Thanks!

Most likely it isn't a problem with your equipment, but is an abnormal transponder. I have seen this happen on IA8, on a couple transponders that have IP/DVB data transmission. What I have seen happen, is that the receiver locks on the transponder, then tries to find the A/V PIDs, but it can't find them. It keeps waiting for the data to come in, but it never does, because there aren't any A/V PIDs. On the examples I saw on IA8, it would sit there for 5 or 6 minutes on the same transponder, at which time I would get impatient, and I'd manually cut the signal just for a second, so that it would go on to the next transponder. I think it would probably eventually give up trying on it's own, but I never wanted to wait that long.
I'll try to look at that transponder with TSREADER later to see what it looks like.

EDIT: Well I looked at that transponder, and it wasn't due to a data PID, but what I'm seeing is that there are 2 channels listed in the MUX, channel 22 (FTV) and ch 24 (Glas Drine Bih). Both of these channels have a PMT PID listed in the PAT, however the PID listed for both is the NULL PID, ie 8191 . Normally, the receiver would look for the PMT PID, and wait for it to give it the audio and video PIDs for that channel, but this will never happen in the null PID, so it just waits forever.

I noticed that there are a couple PIDs in this MUX that are "unknown usage", meaning that they were probably what should have been in the PMT if it wasn't missing.

[rainman]

Originally Posted by wejones

Most likely it isn't a problem with your equipment, but is an abnormal transponder. I have seen this happen on IA8, on a couple transponders that have IP/DVB data transmission. What I have seen happen, is that the receiver locks on the transponder, then tries to find the A/V PIDs, but it can't find them. It keeps waiting for the data to come in, but it never does, because there aren't any A/V PIDs. On the examples I saw on IA8, it would sit there for 5 or 6 minutes on the same transponder, at which time I would get impatient, and I'd manually cut the signal just for a second, so that it would go on to the next transponder. I think it would probably eventually give up trying on it's own, but I never wanted to wait that long.
I'll try to look at that transponder with TSREADER later to see what it looks like.

it will move on Bill if you wait long enough has took as long as 10 min to move on but it will move.

[eddiebisketti]

EDIT: Well I looked at that transponder, and it wasn't due to a data PID, but what I'm seeing is that there are 2 channels listed in the MUX, channel 22 (FTV) and ch 24 (Glas Drine Bih). Both of these channels have a PMT PID listed in the PAT, however the PID listed for both is the NULL PID, ie 8191 . Normally, the receiver would look for the PMT PID, and wait for it to give it the audio and video PIDs for that channel, but this will never happen in the null PID, so it just waits forever.

I noticed that there are a couple PIDs in this MUX that are "unknown usage", meaning that they were probably what should have been in the PMT if it wasn't missing.[/quote]


Bill, thanks for the info! Yes, this sounds like what is happening . . .the receiver will scan 12177 forever. I tried scanning the TP again a few hours ago and came back about 45 mins. later only to see it was still scanning at 0%. I'll try again in a few days and see if the problems gets corrected. Thanks for your investigation into the matter!

Ed

[rainman]

Originally Posted by eddiebisketti

EDIT: Well I looked at that transponder, and it wasn't due to a data PID, but what I'm seeing is that there are 2 channels listed in the MUX, channel 22 (FTV) and ch 24 (Glas Drine Bih). Both of these channels have a PMT PID listed in the PAT, however the PID listed for both is the NULL PID, ie 8191 . Normally, the receiver would look for the PMT PID, and wait for it to give it the audio and video PIDs for that channel, but this will never happen in the null PID, so it just waits forever.

I noticed that there are a couple PIDs in this MUX that are "unknown usage", meaning that they were probably what should have been in the PMT if it wasn't missing.

Bill, thanks for the info! Yes, this sounds like what is happening . . .the receiver will scan 12177 forever. I tried scanning the TP again a few hours ago and came back about 45 mins. later only to see it was still scanning at 0%. I'll try again in a few days and see if the problems gets corrected. Thanks for your investigation into the matter!

Ed[/quote]


FTV has been scrammbling off and on the last few days it showing in the clear right now if you want to try it again 12177 vert sr 23000 vid 37 aud 38.

[satnutwillb]

Yep,I've never had a problem with that transponder,but decided I check and I let it scan earlier for around 30 min. and it just kept scanning.I checked and FTV was in the clear at the time.

[wejones]

Originally Posted by satnutwillb

Yep,I've never had a problem with that transponder,but decided I check and I let it scan earlier for around 30 min. and it just kept scanning.I checked and FTV was in the clear at the time.

I just now checked, and that FTV channel, (and the other one) STILL do not have the PMT PID listed properly in the PAT however the A/V streams are still there, so if you already had this channel stored, ie your receiver has the A/V PIDs stored, you can watch it (when it is unencrypted... yesterday the actual video PID was encrypted, but I see that now it is FTA). However if you would delete your channels and re-scan that transponder, you would not be able to scan in that channel. You COULD create manual channel, like is done with the WB channels.
This is an interesting situation. It may well be that this is being done intentionally, so that people can't scan in that channel, rather than resorting to encryption.

[wejones]

Replying to my own post, I thought that some people might be interested in seeing what is in the PAT and PMT streams.
The PAT (Program allocation table) is always PID#0, and that's the first thing the receiver looks for when it scans a transponder. I just recorded a bit of the PAT from this MUX, and displayed it in a binary editor that I wrote.

000000 47 40 00 11 00 00 B0 6D 00 02 F9 00 00 00 00 E0 G@....°m..ù....à
000010 10 00 03 E0 66 00 01 E0 64 00 06 E0 67 00 0A E0 ...àf..àd..àg..à
000020 68 00 16 FF FF 00 18 FF FF 00 14 E0 6B 00 1A E0 h..ÿÿ..ÿÿ..àk..à
000030 70 00 17 E1 38 00 15 E1 40 00 0F E0 CE 00 0E E0 p..á8..á@..àÎ..à
000040 CD 00 0D E0 CC 00 09 E0 3A 00 0C E0 CB 00 07 E0 Í..àÌ..à:..àË..à
000050 C9 00 02 E0 65 00 11 E0 CF 00 13 F8 22 00 19 E4 É..àe..àÏ..ø"..ä
000060 27 00 08 E0 D4 00 0B E0 69 00 05 FA 00 00 04 E0 '..àÔ..ài..ú...à
000070 6F 0A FF 4E 50 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF o.ÿNPÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ
000080 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ
000090 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ
0000A0 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ
0000B0 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF 47 40 00 12 ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿG@..
0000C0 00 00 B0 6D 00 02 F9 00 00 00 00 E0 10 00 03 E0 ..°m..ù....à...à
0000D0 66 00 01 E0 64 00 06 E0 67 00 0A E0 68 00 16 FF f..àd..àg..àh..ÿ
0000E0 FF 00 18 FF FF 00 14 E0 6B 00 1A E0 70 00 17 E1 ÿ..ÿÿ..àk..àp..á
0000F0 38 00 15 E1 40 00 0F E0 CE 00 0E E0 CD 00 0D E0 8..á@..àÎ..àÍ..à

The PAT is repeated over and over with null packets {FF} in between. The PAT just has a list of PMT PIDS. I highlighted one, in blue, ie 03 E0 66 . This says that Program #3 uses a PMT PID of HEX 66, { &H66= 102 } . I've also highlighted in orange, 16 FF FF . This says that Program 22 (&HEX16=22) uses PID# 8191 (it uses the last 12 bits of the FFFF). However PID#8191 is always the NULL PID, which has no data, just a bunch of FF FF FF etc.

I also recorded a portion of the PMT PID # 102, ie the one for program #3 above.

000000 47 40 66 16 00 02 B0 1D 00 03 C1 00 00 E8 21 F0 G@f...°...Á..è!ð
000010 00 02 E8 21 F0 00 04 E8 22 F0 06 0A 04 65 6E 67 ..è!ð..è"ð...eng
000020 01 85 EE FA 85 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF .…îú…ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ
000030 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ
000040 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ
000050 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ
000060 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ
000070 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ
000080 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ
000090 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ
0000A0 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ
0000B0 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF 47 40 66 17 ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿG@f.
0000C0 00 02 B0 1D 00 03 C1 00 00 E8 21 F0 00 02 E8 21 ..°...Á..è!ð..è!
0000D0 F0 00 04 E8 22 F0 06 0A 04 65 6E 67 01 85 EE FA ð..è"ð...eng.…îú
0000E0 85 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF …ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ
0000F0 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ


This too, is repeated over and over with FF's in between. I don't understand at all what the data structure of this PMT packet includes, although I know that it lists things like audio and video bitrates, etc. However you can see highlighted in blue, an "8 21" , which is Hex for 2081, which is the video and PCR PID# for this program. Also, in red is "8 22" which is the audio PID# for this program. Other than that, I don't have a clue, but you can see how the PMT PID shows the receiver which PID#s are the audio and video for this program.

I also recorded a bit of the SDT on this transponder, ie:

000000 47 40 11 12 00 42 F2 AB 00 02 CF 00 00 00 02 FF G@...Bò«..Ï....ÿ
000010 00 03 01 80 16 48 14 01 07 50 49 54 43 4F 4D 4D ...€.H...PITCOMM
000020 0A 47 4E 46 20 4D 6F 76 69 65 73 00 01 01 90 12 .GNF.Movies...�.
000030 53 02 06 04 48 0C 01 06 50 49 54 43 4F 4D 03 43 S...H...PITCOM.C
000040 43 4E 00 06 01 80 12 48 10 01 06 50 49 54 43 4F CN...€.H...PITCO
000050 4D 07 4B 55 52 44 20 54 56 00 0A 01 80 16 48 14 M.KURD.TV...€.H.
000060 01 07 50 49 54 43 4F 4D 4D 0A 54 42 4E 20 52 75 ..PITCOMM.TBN.Ru
000070 73 73 69 61 00 16 01 80 0D 48 0B 01 05 52 52 53 ssia...€.H...RRS
000080 61 74 03 46 54 56 00 18 01 80 18 48 16 02 05 52 at.FTV...€.H...R
000090 52 53 61 74 0E 47 6C 61 73 20 44 72 69 6E 65 20 RSat.Glas.Drine.
0000A0 42 69 68 00 14 01 80 12 48 10 01 07 50 49 54 43 Bih...€.H...PITC
0000B0 4F 4D 4D 06 54 43 53 2D 54 56 00 1A 47 00 11 13 OMM.TCS-TV..G...
0000C0 01 80 10 48 0E 01 07 50 49 54 43 4F 4D 4D 04 4A .€.H...PITCOMM.J
0000D0 43 54 56 00 17 01 80 25 48 23 02 10 57 52 4E 20 CTV...€%H#..WRN.
0000E0 54 72 61 6E 73 6D 69 73 73 69 6F 6E 10 53 75 6B Transmission.Suk
0000F0 68 20 53 61 67 61 72 20 52 61 64 69 6F 00 15 01 h.Sagar.Radio...

Again, I don't know the data structure here, but you can see the data for channel 3 and channel 6 in red and blue, and you can see the text for the channel names to the right. Ie in this case, the channel names are coming from the SDT stream, but on some transponders there might not even be an SDT stream.

Anyway, I don't know if anyone finds this of use, but I just thought that it might be interesting. Ie basically, the PAT points to the PMTs for the different programs, the PMTs point to the A/V PIDs, and the names generally come from the SDT.

[satnutwillb]

If anyone had to do a master reset,would they have to manually enter pids for all the chs. on that transponder,or just for FTV and the other one in that mux?

[wejones]

Originally Posted by satnutwillb

If anyone had to do a master reset,would they have to manually enter pids for all the chs. on that transponder,or just for FTV and the other one in that mux?

The receiver can find the PIDs, as long as there is a PMT listing them, which is usually the case. This business of having a missing PMT seems to be a way for uplinkers to hide a FTA channel from us, since they don't show up in a scan.


EDIT: For those with C-band, the CW transponder (3720H/26700) on G11 is a good example. This transponder doesn't have either a PAT or PMT stream, so receivers don't have anything to work with. You need to be able to manually enter these channels. TSREADER shows you the A/V streams.