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Fortec Star Discussions, Q&A about Fortec Star satellite receivers, LNBF, and dishes.

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Old 04-08-2007, 08:35 PM
kleg4 kleg4 is offline
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c/ku lnb with 120 cm dish

Good Evening,

I am new on this forum and I am looking to get comfortable with FTA. I have an old C Band system, I took it with me when I moved, (7 years ago) and the installer went out of business after he delivered it to my new house. ( uninstalled, sitting on a pole on special made trailer to transport large c band dishes. 3 meter dish, h to h mount, Chaparell Monteray 90 IRD) It is just to big for 1 person to install and I have no set up or test equipment. I am interested in the 120 cm dish kit with the h to h motor, But I see there are c/ku band lnb's under the lnb section. what is the benefit to a c/ku lnb versus a "K" band only lnb. I also see there is a offset mount for the 120cm dish for this lnb. Can "C" band be received on this dish??? I am sure I will have more questions, but I am trying to come up with an order list for a system.

thank You,

Kevin

Cape Cod, Massachusetts
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Old 04-08-2007, 09:20 PM
lumpkin666 lumpkin666 is offline
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120cm may work for some c-band reception, but not reliable and not well enough to get everything out there. There are simply some channels that are not yet available on ku-band, so if you have the option and the inclination, go for the c-band stuff. But don't let the obstacles in receiving c-band keep you from installing an appropriate ku-band system, as there are tons of channels available to you with ku-band equipment.

With that said, get a friend/neighbor/handyman/whoever to help you manhandle the larger dish and get it installed. Set yourself a pole and drop in on there. It's not going to be that difficult as long as you can get someone to help you heft it up there (I've done a 7.5 ft mesh dish several times by myself, so I know that you and one other person will be able to handle whatever you've got there). With the right lnb's, actuator, etc you'll have the ultimate setup (and it's not going to be that much more difficult than setting up a smaller system).

Ask for assistance/advice when you need it, and you'll have that puppy installed and running in no time. Good luck!
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Dishes: 2 Primestar 75E, 2 Fortec 90cm, 2 10ft, 7.5ft
Motors: 2 SG2100, SkyJack 24" & 36" actuators
Movers: 2 VBoxII
LNB(f)s: Invacom qph-031, Primestar, dual/single ku, BSC621,Geosat dual C-Band, 2 Polarotor, Corotor
DVB Receivers/cards: 2 Fortec Classic NA, 2 Dreambox 500-s, SatPros DSR-550s, Digiwave DG7000, Lava 3200, Pansat 2500a, Viewsat Ultra, Twinhan 102g
Analog: Zenith 1000, GI 2400
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Old 04-09-2007, 01:02 AM
bill190 bill190 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kleg4 View Post
...what is the benefit to a c/ku lnb versus a "K" band only lnb. I also see there is a offset mount for the 120cm dish for this lnb. Can "C" band be received on this dish???...
I have a 12 ft. C band mesh dish and sometimes have trouble with reception during bad weather. But it basically works OK. The bigger the better though.

And I have a 90 cm Ku band dish which works ok, but have trouble during bad weather. Again the bigger the better.

I bought one of those C/Ku LNB's and am going to try it on my big dish. Hopefully this will improve Ku reception during bad weather.

If I had the choice of using a larger dish, I would use the larger dish with a quickness! Basically you get better reception. In some cases a larger dish is the only way to receive weaker signals.

Why C band?
Answer: More channels.

Some satellites are C band only. Others are half C band and half Ku band.

Here are the frequency ranges basically for C or Ku...
C band LNB = 3.7 GHz to 4.2 GHz
Ku band LNB = 11.7 GHz to 12.2 GHz

Now if you look at satellite frequencies (left hand column) at the link below for satellite AMC 1 , there are frequencies which are...
3.740 GHz
3.840 GHz
to
4.180 GHz
These are C Band frequencies.

Then there are frequencies which are...
11.760 GHz
11.840 GHz
to
12.177 GHz
These are Ku band frequencies.

Satellite AMC 1...
AMC 1 (257.0E - 103.0W) Last Chart Update: 2007-04-07, 11:52
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Old 04-09-2007, 05:45 AM
kleg4 kleg4 is offline
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Still unclear?

Good Morning,

I understand that a large C Band dish is best, I'm trying to understand the FTA set up. Is the FTA receiver the same as my Chaparell Monteray 90? Just that it does not have a Video Cypher capability? It seems the FTA is Receiving Digital? or does it receive analog. It also seems to be light years ahead on tuning satelites, etc. I am understanding that the 120cm dish is bigger than a dish network type dish, so shouldn't the receive be ok on this dish. I am not looking to replace my C Band, but was curious why they offer a c/ku band lnb for the 120 cm dish. And if there is a benefit to it for the future.

Thank You,

Kevin

Cape Cod Massachusetts
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Old 04-09-2007, 07:05 AM
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wejones wejones is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kleg4 View Post
I understand that a large C Band dish is best, I'm trying to understand the FTA set up. Is the FTA receiver the same as my Chaparell Monteray 90? Just that it does not have a Video Cypher capability?
No. The Chaparell Monty 90/95 is an (probably the best) analog receiver. The Videocipher capability is to allow you to subscribe to analog subscription channels (that are getting fewer and fewer). Actually, Videocipher audio is digital, but the video is analog.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kleg4 View Post
It seems the FTA is Receiving Digital? or does it receive analog. It also seems to be light years ahead on tuning satelites, etc. I am understanding that the 120cm dish is bigger than a dish network type dish, so shouldn't the receive be ok on this dish. I am not looking to replace my C Band, but was curious why they offer a c/ku band lnb for the 120 cm dish. And if there is a benefit to it for the future.
You can get a cheap FTA receiver and slave it to your Monty 90, then you can get both analog and digital. There is FTA on both C and Ku. If your system was already getting both C and Ku, then you should be just fine.
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Old 04-09-2007, 11:52 AM
bill190 bill190 is offline
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As a rule, all new FTA mpeg receivers are digital.

As a rule, all old BUD (Big Ugly Dish) receivers were analog.

With a dish, you can have a C band LNB, a Ku band LNB, or both. These LNB's will receive analog or digital satellite signals.

As a rule, just about every satellite signal these days is digital. You can not receive digital satellite signals with an old analog receiver. Just like satellite radio, you can't receive this with your old analog car radio, you need a new digital satellite radio.

Then there are encrypted (crypt, cipher) signals which are paid, or open Free to Air satellite signals. The paid signals can be analog or digital. The Free to Air signals can be analog or digital. The signals can be C or Ku.

Then there are new satellites and old satellites up in space. Maybe 30 or 40 satellites which can be pointed to from North America depending on your location. Some satellites have weak signals, some satellites have strong signals.

As a rule, you need a larger dish for C band, but a smaller dish will work for Ku band.

If it is a satellite with a strong signal and you are just pointing a fixed dish at that satellite and it is Ku band, then a very small dish will work (as they use for paid satellite TV).

To get the weaker satellites, you need a larger dish. The communications companies which use these satellites use very large dishes. Like these monsters...
Earth Stations. Ground station antennas and systems for HUB's

If you are using a motorized dish, it is very difficult to set it up so it points exactly dead center at each and every satellite as it rotates back and forth across the sky. The arc can be a little too high or low, or the arc may not be exactly aligned with the arc the satellites are at in space. If you are using a smaller dish and your arc is ever so slightly off when pointing to a weaker satellite, then you are not going to get anything from that satellite. A larger dish is more forgiving. You are pointing to an object 30,000 miles up in space. If your aiming is off just a hair, you may be pointing 100 miles away from the satellite by the time that line of aim is 30,000 miles away from earth! But this is ok for the stronger satellites.

Due to the precise aiming required for weak satellites, I installed a "turn buckle" on my small motorized dish. Then when aiming, I can turn the turn buckle maybe a quarter turn and raise the dish up just a hair. Or lower it just a hair. I do this while using a satellite signal meter and making the dish go back and forth across the sky. It can take a lot of patience and several days to get the arc just right so you get dead on for all satellites.

Some satellite FTA channels use Dolby for sound and you can not hear the sound with some mpeg receivers. I just bought a Fortec Mercury II and this has an S/PDIF optical cable connection (Dolby pass-through) which I connect to my new Sony DG-500 surround sound amplifier with optical connection, then I can hear the sound on all channels.

My goal is to get as many channels as I can. This means largest dish possible, C and Ku, and a receiver with Dolby "pass through".

But you can use a smaller dish and get just Ku from just the stronger satellites.

Also there is the "maintenance" aspect of owning an FTA mpeg receiver. Satellites change their frequencies. What works today may not work tomorrow because they changed the frequency. With my old mpeg receiver, I would need to go to lyngsat.com or satcodx.com and find the new frequency. Then manually enter it in my receiver. The satellite in my post above has 36 different frequencies. Multiply this by 30 or 40 satellites and you have a lot of frequencies to keep up to date! My new Mercury II receiver has what is called "blind search". I just turn it lose on a satellite and it goes to work - searching for every possible frequency, and adding new frequencies to the receiver list. Then searching for FTA channels on all the frequencies in the list.

No mess, no fuss! Saves a ton of work.

Anyway it took me a long time to understand FTA. So feel free to ask more questions.
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Old 04-09-2007, 02:35 PM
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wejones wejones is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bill190 View Post
If you are using a motorized dish, it is very difficult to set it up so it points exactly dead center at each and every satellite as it rotates back and forth across the sky. The arc can be a little too high or low, or the arc may not be exactly aligned with the arc the satellites are at in space. If you are using a smaller dish and your arc is ever so slightly off when pointing to a weaker satellite, then you are not going to get anything from that satellite. A larger dish is more forgiving.
I don't quite agree with this. A small 3' dish on Ku is pretty much the same in terms of being "forgiving" as a 10' dish on C-band. A 10' dish on Ku is less forgiving than a 3' dish. This is assuming that the measure of being "forgiving" is resolution.
Basically, a 10' dish on Ku only needs to be off aim by about a degree before you lose signal, but a 3' dish can be off by more than 2 degrees and still see the signal because it has a wider beamwidth. This is offset a bit by the fact that the 10' dish has more gain, and is collecting more signal, however a good shaped dish will have the majority of that extra signal concentrated within a degree of the center point.
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Old 04-09-2007, 11:39 PM
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What he said ^^

When it comes to offset dishes, bigger dish will give you a better signal when positioned properly, but smaller dish will be more "forgiving" if you are not positioned correctly.

Bigger the dish, narrower the beamwidth.
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Old 04-10-2007, 06:59 AM
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Smaller dish may be more forgiving but I am about done with motorized small dishes. Seriously considering ditching the 2 small dishes due to movement and nonmovement. The SG2100 now refuses to move. Can hear it hitting (signal sent) inside the motor but nothing. Combine this with being knocked out of position (something that has never happened with my big dishes) by storms. It is just getting to be to big of a pain to keep a small dish running. Perhaps welding the motor mount to the pole once south is properly located would help but still does help with the nonmovememnt.

As I have said in the past these are inexpensive systems so .... The big dish still rules the block
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8.5' Mesh Dish w/ C & Ku lnb's & 24" actuator
8.5' Mesh Dish w/ BSC621-2 fixed install for circular C Band on 40.5
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Old 04-10-2007, 09:42 AM
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How about getting the "mini actuator" for KU? Like the one that Edon sells (or is that eton???) Saw it in Tele-Satellite Mag from Europe. Works just like a big ac but made for 3' dish and below...
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